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Jewish And Muslim Students Unite To Debunk Horowitz’s Claims



The relationship between the Jewish and Muslim communities is often portrayed as one of enmity and opposition. In reality, this is just not true. Both Jews and Muslims are adherents of monotheist, Abrahamic religions that have a great deal in common. Perhaps more importantly, American Jews and Muslims share the experience of living as minority communities within the larger fabric of American society. For many of our ancestors, the freedom of religion and expression afforded by the U.S. Constitution played a pivotal role in informing their decision to emigrate to our great country.

David Horowitz has claimed that opposition to A.S. funding for his upcoming speech is rooted in a desire to silence him and curtail his right to free speech. The truth is that we merely oppose the use of student funds to subsidize bigotry and prejudice. Students must be exposed to a wide variety of intellectual perspectives on all issues, but Horowitz goes far beyond providing an alternative perspective. We and many other students on this campus are deeply offended by his claim that “there is a movement for a second Holocaust of the Jews that is being supported [at UCSB] by the Muslim Student Association.” The UCSB MSA is an incredibly valuable member of our campus, has been involved in numerous interfaith dialogues and provides a cultural and religious home to a large segment of the UCSB Muslim community. The accusation that the UCSB MSA has ties to terrorism is not only baseless and inaccurate, but it also propagates stereotypes and misconceptions that far too often have led to deadly consequences. We stand unified with our Muslim friends in repudiating these grossly inaccurate stereotypes and call upon the UCSB community at large to stand by their fellow students.

Though we are deeply offended by Horowitz’s accusations against the UCSB MSA, we are not protesting the “Infantile Disorders” event. We are not interfering with the event and we are not associated with anyone who attempts to interfere. Rather, we are encouraging the UCSB community to join the UCSB Respect Coalition at “The Alternative: Empowering Our Voices” (Today at 8 p.m., Embarcadero Hall). The event will provide a safe space for students to speak openly about discrimination, hate speech and how to foster a more inclusive campus community. Our hope is that the event gives UCSB students a real chance to express how they are a part of the beautiful, multiethnic, interfaith American mosaic. We strongly encourage any student who is interested in constructive dialogue to attend.

 

Signed,

Santa Barbara Hillel

UCSB American Students for Israel

UCSB Students for Justice in Palestine

UCSB Muslim Student Association

 

Subtext: Santa Barbara Hillel is a Jewish community center at UC Santa Barbara. American Students for Israel is a bipartisan student group dedicated to political advocacy. Students for Justice in Palestine is a human rights and social justice organization unaffiliated with any one race, ethnicity or religion. Muslim Student Association is an apolitical, autonomous faith-based UCSB campus organization that is open to the public.

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70 Responses to Jewish And Muslim Students Unite To Debunk Horowitz’s Claims

  1. Mel Beckman Reply

    June 1, 2011 at 7:10 pm

    Hunter,

    That passage goes to the core of Christianity: that Jesus gave his life to redeem Man; it wasn’t taken from him. The context:

      Matthew 27:24-25   When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it. 
    25   Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children. 

    Fortunately, the people
    were wrong, as Jesus death was not caused by them:

      John 10:14-18   I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 
    15   As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 
    16   And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. 
    17   Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 
    18   No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. 

  2. Arafat Reply

    June 1, 2011 at 4:38 pm

    Masada,

    Do you believe that where there is smoke there is fire?

    http://frontpagemag.com/2011/06/01/expose-of-muslim-students-association/

    • Hunter D. Reply

      June 1, 2011 at 4:43 pm

      Arafat,

      the integrity of your source material matters. If you could find a non-openly bias source it would certainly help your credibility. I’m not saying you’re right or you’re wrong, just that you’re approach has many inherent weaknesses.

  3. Mel Beckman Reply

    May 30, 2011 at 11:15 pm

    As a Christian I always take care to denounce counterfeit Christianity in the strongest, clearest terms: skinheads that call Jews “Jesus killers,” pro-lifers that advocate killing abortion doctors, so-called “Identity” radicals that claim non-Caucasians have no souls. These Satanic blasphemers do not follow the Christ of God’s Scripture. Confusion sown by counterfeit Christians must be rebutted at every turn.

    I don’t understand why mainstream Muslims, for the most part, are unwilling to denounce what should be called the blasphemous counterfeits of Islam, the radicals who advocate the annihilation of Christians and Jews and the use of terrorism to force conversion of “unbelievers”.

    Why? It seems that it is because in their hearts they agree with the hideous doctrine of “death to infidels.”

    • Hunter D. Reply

      June 1, 2011 at 4:49 pm

      Mel,

      The form of the questioning is different, as are the cultural assumptions. When you denounce what you deem as counterfeit Christianity, (I would personally argue that Christianity is every bit as warlike as Islam and that the Torah repeatedly discusses genocide in a positive light), you are not doing so because culture at large views you as in league with said groups. No one conflates the whole of Catholicism with Skinheads even when the current Pope was raised in the Nazi Youth. However, a great many in America dismiss the whole of Islam because of the actions of many Middle Eastern governments and are unwilling to separate the two.

      You’re speaking from the privileged perspective of someone who is part of the mainstream culture in your society. Though there are millions of Muslims in the US, they do not have this same luxury. As such, the request or demand that they denounce something with which they are unrelated becomes more problematic. There is an implied guilt in the framing of the question that is not dissimilar to McCarthyism.

      • Mel Beckman Reply

        June 1, 2011 at 6:07 pm

        Hunter,

        Your comments give even stronger support to the idea that U.S. Muslims have an great reason to denounce radical Islam. Given Muslim culture’s less intrinsic involvement in the Judeo-Christian fabric of American society, conservative followers should be loudly decrying terrorism as a tactic. This has nothing whatsoever to do with McCarthyism, and everything to do with clarifying that Islam doesn’t sanction killing unbelievers.

        Incidentally, the Catholic Inquisition and other historical terroristic tactics used by people calling themselves Christians is an exactly parallel situation: these were not true Christians, but counterfeits. Such counterfeits are easy to identify, as Jesus never called for killing unbelievers.

        • Hunter D. Reply

          June 1, 2011 at 6:12 pm

          Matthew 27:25 would seem to differ.

          • Mel Beckman Reply

            June 1, 2011 at 9:17 pm

            Hunter,

            That passage goes to the core of Christianity: that Jesus gave his life to redeem Man; it wasn’t taken from him. The context:

              Matthew 27:24-25   When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it. 
            25   Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children. 

            Fortunately, the people
            were wrong, as Jesus death was not caused by them:

              John 10:14-18   I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 
            15   As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 
            16   And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. 
            17   Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 
            18   No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. 

        • Arafat Reply

          June 1, 2011 at 8:39 pm

          Mel,

          You’re falling into the relativistic camp, i.e., comparing Islam to Christianity when it’s clear you have little understanding of either religion.

          Here’s a place where you can begin to understand just how profoundly different Islam is from any other religion on our planet.

          http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/09/the_political_violence_of_the.html

          http://www.meforum.org/2159/are-judaism-and-christianity-as-violent-as-islam

      • Arafat Reply

        June 1, 2011 at 8:33 pm

        My oh my there’s that dreaded “McCarthyism” accusation. Problem is, Hunter, being honest about Islam is not McCarthyism, it is honesty.

        Here are some additional McCarthys for you to rail against. It’s an honour to see Islam as the following men saw, and experienced Islam.

        http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/islam/T9VLFM30K16SAHC66

    • siddhi Reply

      June 7, 2011 at 6:38 am

      They do, all the time. But it is not news worthy is it?

      • Secular Muslim Reply

        June 7, 2011 at 8:55 am

        Come on, siddhi. You know that isn’t true. The problem with this oft-repeated claim is that neither you nor any of your mainstream co-religionists are willing or able to back up that assertion. Cite an example of “mainstream Muslims” denouncing Islamo-supremacism or jihadism. You won’t, because you can’t.

        Ironically, a very tiny minority of Secular Muslims who unequivocally denounce Islamo-supremacism are condemned by mainstream Muslims, precisely for courageously denouncing jihadism.
        http://www.centerforinquiry.net/isis/

        • q.e.d. Reply

          June 7, 2011 at 11:30 am

          Invoke the name of a secular Muslim (Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Nonie Darwish, Wafa Sultan) and watch MSA toadies spontaneously foam at the mouth.

  4. Mel Beckman Reply

    May 30, 2011 at 8:45 am

    I attended the event, and found no hate speech. I’m a teacher, and a Christian, very familiar with Israel’s history. What I heard was Muslim Student Association hecklers hollering out an occassional contradiction to Mr. Horowitz when he discussed incontrovertible facts such as the 1967 attack on Israel. Fortunately, UCSB’s highly organized security dealt with each heckler swiftly, heading off the MSA’s previous free speech verbal blockade.

    Those opposing SA funding for this event seemed to think they have the right to do so because they didn’t like the content. They call it “hate speech”, but it was in reality a legitimate voice with which they happen to disagree. Labeling speech you disagree with “hate speech” is a cowardly act. This is America; free speech is protected whether you agree with it or not. I disagree with neo-nazis, but I respect their right to free speech.

    I find it shameful and embarrassing to the UCSB community that there was even a hearing on the issue of disbursing funds for this event. That anyone would presume to block the funding is an insult to the U.S. Constitution, and a blight on the civil liberties of all citizens of Santa Barbara.

    What we need a hearing on is the competence of the activity board staff, who never should have entertained withholding funds. As it is, the College Republicans’ free speech rights were illegally hampered by the board withholding most of the requested funds.

    • Masada Reply

      May 30, 2011 at 3:56 pm

      I heard that what Horowitz said was much less controversial this time around. The reason UCSB mobilized against him was because in 2008, the last time he came here he said, among other things, that, “There is a movement for a second Holocaust of the Jews being supported on this campus by the [UCSB] MSA”. That is a very serious accusation to make and since he didn’t have any real proof to back it up it ended being hate speech, whether he meant it to be or not. People didn’t want him coming back here and repeating statements like that one and I think everyone is thankful he didn’t. Honestly I think the only reason he censored himself was because even the Rabbi at Hillel told him he was wrong about that.

      • Hunter D. Reply

        May 30, 2011 at 5:30 pm

        “There is a movement for a second Holocaust of the Jews being supported on this campus by the [UCSB] MSA”.

        2 things:

        A: That is a totally inappropriate use of brackets. His point was that the MSA has ties with radical, openly Anti-Semitic groups who want to kill all Jews in the world. You change the antecedent with your bracket which is disingenuous.

        B: Nothing about the above quoted text is hate speech. It’s not even close. Hate speech would be, “Kill all Jews in the world.” Hate speech implies a specific call to arms against an individual and/or a group of individuals designed to incite violence. To put another way, it’s perfectly legal to say, “Burning down post offices is a good form of protest.” It is NOT legal to say, “Let’s burn down the post office at Fifth and Main at 12:30 p.m. tomorrow.”

        • Masada Reply

          May 30, 2011 at 6:54 pm

          It’s not an inappropriate use of brackets, I put them there to clarify that he was talking about the UCSB MSA. There is no other MSA on the UCSB campus, and he clearly said “this campus” during his UCSB speech so he was in fact referring to the UCSB MSA. I’m not saying what he said was illegal, but there is absolutely no doubt that it was hateful. If he thinks that it’s hateful for people to call him a racist how does he then justify saying that the UCSB MSA supports a second holocaust? Do you not see the contradiction there?

          • Arafat Reply

            May 30, 2011 at 7:16 pm

            Masada,

            Do you really think you’re clever?

            Does UCSB’s MSA support Hamas and Hezbollah? Have any of the UCSB’s MSA members publicly denounced Hamas or Hezbollah? Does the UCSB MSA support Iran?

            All of the above mentioned (and many more Islamic organizations and countries) have openly declared for and support the genocide of Israel. It appears that’s not worthy of even a word of condemnation from UCSB’s MSA. Not surprising, really. What with the ongoing genocide in Sudan (and UCSB’s MSA complete silence about this genocide) why would we expect any different when it comes to Jews in Israel? Of course, though, hypocrites that they are cannot wait to shriek “GENOCIDE” any time Israel does anything whatsoever to defend itself from blood-thirsty Muslims intent on pushing them into the sea. Ahhhh…to be the MSA and to have a bunch of leftist, knee-jerk morons behind you. That sounds a little bit like Paradise. Are there many virgins among the MSA groupies to fulfill that end of the Muslim Paradise contract?

            Now all of this does not necessarily mean that UCSB’s MSA supports the genocide of Israel, but I don’t see any of its members suggesting they would be against it. Nor do I hear of any of their members renouncing all those Hitler-like Muslims who openly and without a shred of remorse call for the genocide of all Jews in Israel.

            Of course _ and this is undeniable – when Horowitz asked the MSA member of the UCSD campus whether she supported the genocide of all Jews in Israel she was honest (and stupid enough) to answer “yes”. (Of course later, when she saw it led to bad press, she claimed she didn’t understand the question, but we all know this is just another Muslim weaseling out of an awkward situation. They’re quite experienced and quite good at that.

            Are you saying this young UCSD member is a statistical outlier? If so why do we never hear from MSA members denouncing Hamas’ words. Sounds like tacit approval to me.

            No doubt if Iran were to drop a bomb on Israel all the ultra sensitive, peace loving UCSB MSA members would take to the streets in protest – oops, make that celebration, of one more Armenian, Sudanese, Somalia, Hindu, Buddhist genocide to add to their list.

            Remember, Masada, Afghanistan was once home to a flourishing Buddhist civilization. Now all Buddhists are gone.

            Remember, Masada, Saudi Arabia was once home to a flourishing Jewish, Christian and Zoroastrian civilization. Now they are all gone.

            Remember, Masada, there once were homosexuals in Iran, but Ahmadinejad tells us they too are all gone.

            Remember, Masada, Pakistan and Bangladesh were once home to tens of millions of Hindus – home to the great Hindu civilization – now most are all gone.

            Masada, what is it about Muslims and genocide? And why won’t the MSA denounce the genocide loving Hamas?

            • Masada Reply

              May 30, 2011 at 7:36 pm

              You got something wrong there buddy, the UCSB MSA says nothing about any of the political issues in the Middle East. SJP is the organization I believe you are referring to and guess what, the majority of the members of SJP here ARENT MUSLIM. Why would you single out an organization that makes no public statements about any political issues, ask them to make one, and then assume they hold a certain point of view because they don’t. Santa Barbara Hillel doesn’t make public political statements, do you assume they support genocide because of that? Believe me, I know what some other MSA’s around the country do and there is a good reason for us to ask members of those MSAs whether or not they would condemn terrorism. The reason David Horowitz was wrong in making that demand of the UCSB MSA is because they don’t make statements, hold events, or do anything to take political positions on issues in the Middle East. He should have asked the entire room to condemn terrorism it it is my sincere hope that the entire room would.

            • Hunter D. Reply

              May 30, 2011 at 8:09 pm

              Arafat,

              You’re suggesting McCarthyism. It is not any Muslim’s job to denounce the actions of any other Muslim. They are not related. Ever heard of, “Sins of the father?” Same rules apply. The implication of requesting the MSA or any other organizations to “openly oppose” Hamas, Hezzbollah, et al is logically unsound and simply poor rhetoric.

              • Discover UCSB MSA dossier Reply

                May 31, 2011 at 5:12 am

                Here again we find a misapplication of association guilt denial. If a student group formed a KKK chapter at UCSB, but didn’t engage in actual behaviors that Hunter finds abhorent, then no denunciation of the KKK agenda is required?

                If UCSB MSA members don’t wish to be tarred with MSA affiliation, then they should disassociate themselves and form a group that more accurately reflects their values. Maybe the kitten-kuddler-klub?

                In the interim, people of conscience have a duty to condemn MSA local chapters for their local and national organization’s rancid record of Islamo-supremacism and bigotry.
                http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/groupProfile.asp?grpid=7403

                Local MSA chapters are indeed related to their parent organization. Your silly whitewashing denials notwithstanding, the cited evidence stands.

          • Hunter D. Reply

            May 30, 2011 at 8:03 pm

            The MSA has a history of questionable association. I’m not gonna repeat that stuff because other people have already delved into that extensively, if ineloquently, in this thread.

            As for, “Not saying it’s illegal,” that’s precisely what you said. Hate Speech, as it happens, is a very specific thing. And you knew that. That’s why you chose the word. To cast you opponent in a light that is indefensible. You chose that word for shock value, the same way that Horowitz chose his words for shock value. You two might have a little more in common than you want to admit.

            • Masada Reply

              May 30, 2011 at 8:12 pm

              First of all, I have no idea what the legal implications of the phrase “hate speech” are. My point is that particular statement by David Horowitz was absolutely hateful and in your own words, indefensible. It is simply too serious of an accusation to make without being 100% sure it is true because it directly affects the lives of the people in the UCSB MSA. Do you not get how awful it would be if people all over campus thought you supported a second holocaust when you didn’t?

              • Hunter D. Reply

                May 31, 2011 at 3:32 am

                So, you’re basically saying that you make wild claims without doing any type of research on what you’re saying? Doesn’t that sound EXACTLY like what you’re accusing Horowitz of doing?

                Furthermore, this quote: “My point is that particular statement by David Horowitz was absolutely hateful and in your own words, indefensible,” is completely untrue. I said that YOU were trying to paint Horowitz’s words as hate speech and thus indefensible speech, as a way of censoring him and publicly shaming those who might sympathize with his worldview. I was pointing out your rhetorical device and rebutting it, not agreeing with it.

                You use words that you do not understand and then you wildly misread basic English sentences; sounds like you have a serious problem with reading comprehension, Masada. That, or you’re more concerned with remaining true to your political dogma than you are with the content of anyone’s speech.

                Horowitz is questionable in his motives and choice of presentation, but to pretend that the vast majority of the nations surrounding Israel would not be more than happy to kill every Jewish man, woman and child in the region, if not the whole of the world, is to play the role of an ostrich. Horowitz is incorrect in creating a false correlation between Muslim groups on our campus and the broader swath of Muslim governmental opinion half a world away. However, there are many Muslim groups on many campuses in the US and abroad that fit quite neatly into Horowitz’s description. Some of these student groups are, in fact, chapters of the MSA.

                He is at fault for assuming that the MSA at UCSB is directly related to the national MSA. Of course, the confusion is not entirely his fault: the UCSB group did choose a name with a specific history attached and the national MSA does publicize the events of the UCSB branch on their website.

                And yes, I know exactly what it’s like to walk around campus and see widespread support of a second Holocaust; It’s called Palestinian Awareness Week. You know, the one where they do nothing to introduce the student body to Palestinian culture, food, folk music, or religious sects (like the Coptic’s) and instead paster the campus full of slanderous statements about Jews and Israel that seem to pretty clearly call for a violent end to the state of Israel and all those Jews who inhabit it…kind of like, what’s that word…oh yeah, hate speech.

                • Discover UCSB MSA dossier Reply

                  May 31, 2011 at 5:21 am

                  Horowitz is NOT “at fault for assuming that the MSA at UCSB is directly related to the national MSA.” Repeating that false assertion (ad nauseum) adds nothing to the discussion.

                  Local MSA chapters are indeed related to their parent organization. This empty-headed denial campaign notwithstanding, the cited evidence stands.
                  http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/groupProfile.asp?grpid=7403

                  • Masada

                    May 31, 2011 at 1:56 pm

                    lol the evidence that has nothing more recent than 2007 and cites a website which no longer exists. Realize this is a STUDENT organization meaning that not a single leader (and probably individual) that was part of UCSB MSA in 2007 is still part of it now.

                  • Discover UCSB MSA dossier

                    June 1, 2011 at 7:27 am

                    *pffl* More empty-headed denials from Masada?

                    Grade: F- (miserable failure)

                    /dismissed

                  • Masada

                    June 1, 2011 at 11:35 am

                    Go to their new website and tell me what you find objectionable. Go to their facebook page and find me an event that has anything to do with politics in the Middle East. If what was “true” back in 2007 is true now you should have no problem doing that.

                • Masada Reply

                  May 31, 2011 at 1:52 pm

                  Lol, I think you’re really confused and now are now making wild claims about me that you can’t back up. I wasn’t misreading your sentence, I was using one of your own words to argue against you in order to irritate you, which I clearly succeeded in doing. I’m not making any statements about Horowitz’s worldview. I actually agree with a fair amount of what he says. Unfortunately he also makes extremely hateful statements like the one I’ve been referring to. I agree that Palestinian Awareness Week often crosses the line from criticizing the Israeli government to being anti-semitic (sometimes unintentionally, sometimes not). That’s not really relevant though because MSA doesn’t host that or organize that on our campus, SJP does. I was trying to get you to look at it from the perspective of the of the UCSB MSA. Imagine you’re going about your business all year, not making political statements about any issues in the Middle East and out of nowhere, some asshole comes and tells everyone at your campus that you support a second Holocaust. Without a doubt some people actually believe this asshole and now they hate you because they think or at least suspect that you want every remaining Jew to die. Is it really so hard to understand why people didn’t want David Horowitz coming back and repeating those kinds of statements?

                  • Hunter D.

                    May 31, 2011 at 5:04 pm

                    No, Masada, You clearly characterized my statement to mean the exact opposite of what I said. And now that I’ve called you on it your defense is what? That you’re trolling these boards? That’s your defense? Seriously?

                    You’ve already admitted that you form your opinions and throw around inflammatory remarks without doing any type of research, demonstrated that you have a poor grasp of rhetoric and likely the English language, and now you’re defending your buffoonery by admitting that you’re posting here specifically to lower the level of the level of debate.

                    You, sir/ma’am are a truly terrible Emissary for those who might agree with you.

                    “I’m not making any statements about Horowitz’s worldview.”

                    Yeah, because repeatedly characterizing it as illegal should in no way be misconstrued as any type of “statement” or judgment.

                    Hysterically, you immediately follow the above quoted portion with two more sentences that are also statements about Horowitz’s worldview. Statements that, by the by, you fail to substantiate in any way, shape or form. What does Horowitz have to say that you agree with? I’d be interested to find out since you also say you didn’t attend the lecture. What did he say that was hateful? Again, seeing as you didn’t attend the lecture.

                    “That’s not really relevant though because MSA doesn’t host that or organize that on our campus, SJP does.”

                    Actually, that’s entirely relevant. You asked me how I would feel were I to walk around campus and see widespread public support of a second Holocaust, thus implying that UCSB is not a hotbed for Anti-Semitic behaviors, attitudes and actions. I pointed out that I have experienced EXACTLY what you’re talking about on our campus. A sentiment that you apparently agree with, by your own admission.

                    So Horowitz is engaging in “Hate speech” when he says that there is rampant Antisemitism on our campus…but you then agree that there is rampant Antisemitism on our campus?

                    I never said that the UCSB chapter of the MSA was an Anti-Semitic organization. If you look through the other posts in this topic you will note that I said I was willing to take this letter and the ASI at their word. Furthermore, I repeatedly defended the group, and Muslim groups in general from accusations of, “Then why won’t you call them out?” which is a fundamentally bigoted argument predicated upon an assumption of unearned guilt.

                    But since you also agree that many MSA groups DO trade in Antisemitism, wouldn’t the easiest way to get around all of this be to change the name to something that isn’t, you know, inflammatory?

                    Look, there’s this band that I kinda used to listen to. They were called Screwdriver. When they started they were just a thrash/hardcore punk act. However, at a point they became a full on Neo-Nazi punk band. Their first CD is still really, really good, but if I blast it from my car, others might be excused for assuming that I was somehow affiliated with Antisemitism. So, I listen to other music.

                    If you’re so afraid of the social stigma of being associated with an overtly political organization that has, by your own word, a history of Antisemitic behavior, wouldn’t it be easy enough to invent your own acronym? I mean, wouldn’t that force the likes of Horowitz to examine your group by your own actions? Wouldn’t that take away his straw man arguments? Wouldn’t that solve all of the problems you are currently facing?

                    It seems to me that by simply changing the arbitrary 3 letter name of your group that you could ensure that Horowitz has nothing to throw at you. And if he did come back, it would certainly defuse his statements when you pointed out —

                    “We’re not the Muslim Student Association, we’re the Muslim Student Coalition. Totally different group, can’t you read? Here is a list of our activities in the last year. As we do not take any public political stances, what exactly is it that you find to be offensive? Was our bake sale on March 23rd a call for a second Holocaust because we employed ovens? Was our trip to Griffith Observatory on February 9th a call for a second Holocaust because we rode in train cars? What are you even talking about, Mr. Horowitz?”

                    As it stands, using the name of a group that you agree is wont toward Antisemitism and then complaining that people think you’re associated with said group, is kind of foolish and easily avoidable.

                  • Masada

                    May 31, 2011 at 6:30 pm

                    I think you misread my statement that you keep ranting about so here it is again, “Do you not get how awful it would be if people all over campus thought you supported a second holocaust when you didn’t?” I’m saying it would be awful for the MSA if people thought they supported a second holocaust when in fact they do not. That’s all I was saying. I’ll restate it a 4th different way if you’re still confused.

                    I used one word of your statement, “indefensible” to support my point of view because I do in fact think that saying the UCSB MSA supports a second holocaust is indefensible and hateful. I’ve characterized Horowitz’s statement about the UCSB MSA as hate speech, that’s it, not any other statements he has made. I used the words “hate speech” because I personally don’t think it’s right for anyone to make that kind of statement in a public forum, not because of any legal implications. I truly believe that particular statement has the potential to incite hatred against Muslims at UCSB because the UCSB MSA is by far the largest and most recognizable Muslim group on campus.

                    I did not attend Horowitz’s lecture on May 26th but I watched the entire 2008 UCSB lecture on his website, the entire UCSD lecture from last year, and I’ve read articles on Jihad Watch, Front Page Mag, and some of the other sites he runs. I agree with him that radical Islam is a very serious problem in the world and that anti-semitism does sometimes rear its ugly head on college campuses when organizations hold anti-Israel events.

                    I’m not a member of the MSA so I’m not really in a position to speak about their name, you would have to talk to one of them about that. I do think that they should be judged by their actions, not anything else.

                  • EVIDENCE: Incitement

                    June 1, 2011 at 7:42 am

                    [Masada bleats: “I truly believe that particular statement has the potential to incite hatred against Muslims”]

                    *pffl* If that were true, then the exquisitely sensitive Masada should have no trouble citing an incident of (alleged) “hatred.” Afterall, the (allegedly) offensive Horowitz statement (aka: Free Speech) took place two years ago.

                    But Masada won’t, because Masada can’t. There are no examples to cite.

                    Conversely, incitement to violence by MSA’s co-conspirators against non-Muslims is a daily occurence, both in Dar-al-Islam and Dar-al-Harb.

                    +17K deadly Islamo-supremacist attacks since 9/11 don’t lie.
                    http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

                    Don’t be an apologist for Islamo-supremacists your whole life, Masada.

                    Grade: F- (intellectually bankrupt)

                    /dismissed

                  • Masada

                    June 1, 2011 at 11:15 am

                    “There is a movement for a second holocaust of the Jews being supported on this campus by the MSA!” – David Horowitz at UCSB in 2008.

                    Douche.

                  • Hunter D.

                    June 1, 2011 at 5:51 pm

                    The other thread got too long, so I’m responding to your initial claim.

                    “My point is that particular statement by David Horowitz was absolutely hateful and in your own words, indefensible.”

                    Those were your words. That was your entire sentence. You didn’t reuse one of my words in an ironic, deconstructing context, (as I did when I pointed out that, in my opinions the actions of “Palestinian Awareness Week” boarder on hate speech), you stated that I agreed that Horowitz’s words were indefensible. Perhaps you meant to say —

                    “My point is that particular statement by David Horowitz was absolutely hateful and TO USE YOUR WORDS, indefensible.”

                    But you didn’t. Your statement implies that I agree with your point when actually I rebutted your point. Unless you’re functionally illiterate, you’re just lying. I don’t mean that as an Ad Hominem attack. It’s just that you’ve used other words and then admitted that you didn’t actually know what they meant, so…

                    I’ll drop the second Holocaust bit because I think we’re going around in circles and you’re missing my larger point. Horowitz is saying that there is a call for a second Holocaust on UC campuses, you agree that this assertion is not incorrect. You don’t think that it is fair to lay this at the feet of the MSA.

                    “I used one word of your statement, “indefensible” to support my point of view because I do in fact think that saying the UCSB MSA supports a second holocaust is indefensible and hateful.”

                    That’s fine. That phrasings is totally fine.

                    “I used the words “hate speech” because I personally don’t think it’s right for anyone to make that kind of statement in a public forum, not because of any legal implications. I truly believe that particular statement has the potential to incite hatred against Muslims at UCSB because the UCSB MSA is by far the largest and most recognizable Muslim group on campus.”

                    But you used the words, “Hate speech.” If I were to arbitrarily call you a Nazi or a Terrorist when I meant, “Someone I vehemently disagree with,” that would be wholly inappropriate. Similarly, calling Horowitz’s words, “Hate speech” when they are clearly not, is also offensive and inappropriate. It is a loaded term. And, in fact, by calling his words hate speech, you engage in the exact same behavior you find outrageous when it comes from him.

                    Also, your explaination says that you DO think his words are hate speech. So which is it? Is Horowitz a criminal, or just abusing his First Amendment rights? You can’t have your cake and eat it too.

                    “I do think that they should be judged by their actions, not anything else.”

                    And the name you choose, especially when it is a specific, politically charged name, is definitely an action. If the Black Student Association called themselves the UCSB Black Panthers…it would mean something, would it not? If the MSA called themselves the UCSB Student Hamas Organization, that would mean something too.

                    Feel free to respond to this, but I won’t read it or respond any further. You admitted several posts again that you aren’t here to discuss things so much as you are here to annoy those who disagree with you. That makes you a troll. I don’t have time for trolls.

                    Best of luck,
                    — Hunter

                  • Matt 23:24

                    June 8, 2011 at 8:14 am

                    “Ye blind guides, that strain out the gnat, and swallow the camel!”
                    [Matthew 23:24]

  5. Arafat Reply

    May 28, 2011 at 8:57 am

    “An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.”

    Sir Winston Churchill
    British politician (1874 – 1965)

  6. Nathan Reply

    May 27, 2011 at 10:46 pm

    With all do respect Donna, you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about if you think there are no terrorists in Gaza or the West Bank. They aren’t all terrorists, but there are terrorists there. And to call millions of dollars, both American and Israeli, victimization is laughable. Please check your facts…

  7. Arafat Reply

    May 27, 2011 at 9:24 am

    Arguably good-intenetioned people like Daniel Melnick are like those who supported Neville Chamberlain not so many years ago.

    Daniel, I do not mean to hurt your feelings so much as to offer a different – probably more grounded and real – perspective on what you and your friends are supporting. I also hope to make skeptics more open to hear and to study what Horowitz is saying. Just because the NYT labels Horowitz a bigot does not make it the gospel.

    Read about Islam, take notes on what Horowitz says and check the facts. There is not question whatsoever that Mohammed was a murderous, rapist, enslaving megalomaniac. Nor is there any question that the Qur’an is filled with verses of hatred of non-Muslims (particularly of Jews). Do not dismiss these FACTS just because they are not PC. Chamberlain learned the hard way and the damage he did by being a naive stooge is impossible to calculate. Don’t be our generation’s Chamberlain groupies.

    • Khadeja Fishman Reply

      May 28, 2011 at 5:17 am

      What a racist bit of blog. Absolute rubbish. Muslism and jews have historically have had no problems, its only with the creation fo islarale on palestinian land which made millions homeless that the problens arose. Jewish communities historically have been inward looking, and so have had difficulty cos of that. Whats happenign in israelm we can only blame, Germans, Eurpoe and UK balfour, whom because of the european holocasut, created a generation fo h=jewish victims, who have now goen from victims to oppressors in israel, oppressing the palestinians. How can you feel sympathy for a atate which behave in that way. muslims dont feel the level of guilt that europe shoudl feel, as they have hisotrically lived in unison with jews. The problems are political not personal.

      • Masada Reply

        May 28, 2011 at 6:20 pm

        You have your facts wrong to a certain extent. While discrimination against Jews was much worse in Europe, Jews were still second class citizens in the Muslim world. The virulent, European style of anti-semitism (such as the blood libel) arrived in the Muslim world not when Israel was created but when Jews started returning to the land in general. A famous example is the fact that the Palestinian leader of Jerusalem traveled to Germany during WWII to consult with Hitler about how to enact the final solution in Israel. The increasing anti-semitism was part of the reason 800,000 Jews from all over the Middle East left their homes to go to Israel when it was created.

        • Legacy of Jihad Reply

          June 6, 2011 at 11:00 am

          Mohammed’s genocide project dates to AD 627 beginning with the Qurayza Jews. Hitler was relatively late to the game and was schooled by the Turkish Armenian genocide.

          For a more thorough discussion of genocidal Islmao-supremacism, read “The Legacy of Jihad” @ http://www.andrewbostom.org/loj/

          Today, Jordanian-Arabs of The Palestinian Authority demand that no Jewish communities be allowed wherever they hope to govern (aka, removal of “settlements”); and Egyptian-Arabs in Hamastan have ethnically cleansed Gaza of every ethnic Jew.

          It would appear that people demanding the ethnic cleansing of Jews from these disputed territories envision one country (Israel) where Jews, Muslims and others may live as equals and another (Palestine) where Jews are verboten. If that isn’t Islamo-supremacist Apartheid, I don’t know what is.

  8. Horowitz is a demonstrable ANTI-supremacist. For a more scholarly discussion of his anti-racist views, see “Hating Whitey: And Other Progressive Causes” @
    http://www.amazon.com/Hating-Whitey-Other-Progressive-Causes/dp/189062621X

    But this smear campaign is a tried and true tactic of the Left: intellectually bankrupt as it is, it hopes to silence its critics, rather than dealing with them on the level of ideas. They can’t answer us, so they hope to discredit us. Leftists, as well as apologists for Islamo-supremacism, label their opponents “hatemongers” and “bigots,” hoping thereby to make people of good will turn away from their message.

    In reality, Horowitz is dedicated to the defense of human rights for all people against those who would impose Islamic (sharia) law, with its institutionalized discrimination against women and religious minorities, over both Muslim and non-Muslim societies. There is no “hatred” in this, except when Horowitz reports the words of hatred and supremacism of the jihadists. We are trying to raise awareness of the nature, extent, and goals of the global jihad, which threatens everyone who loves and cherishes freedom and the equality of rights of all people before the law.

    And so, we are going to fight this censorship. Wherever you are today, know this: we will not be vilified and silenced, when we are telling the truth.

  9. mm Reply

    May 27, 2011 at 3:24 am

    walt seems like a hoodwinked Israel-whiped bootlicker.

    • Ganesha akbar! Reply

      May 27, 2011 at 7:28 am

      Fascinating and scholarly analysis. Tell us more.

  10. walt kovacs Reply

    May 26, 2011 at 7:25 pm

    its so nice that the jews of ucsb wish to embrace their dhimmitude

    i dont like horowitz, but most of his facts are not innacurate

    the msa was founded by the muslim brotherhood

    up and down the uc system, the msa has sponsored anti israel and anti semetic speakers and events

    you cannot deny this

    will the msa of ucsb condemn the actions of the other msa groups?

    if not…why?

    ill tell you why…because like all good practicing muslims, they have no problem with lying…for it is a positive commandment…callled al taquiah

    one is allowed to lie to the infidel

    • Daniel Melnick Reply

      May 26, 2011 at 8:22 pm

      Walt,
      I am the Vice President of Political Affairs for American Students for Israel, and I have to tell you that with regards to UCSB MSA, you’re misinformed. The MSA at UCSB is entirely non-political, they’ve taken part in a number of interfaith dialogues, and have been strong allies to the Jewish community. There are MSAs on other campuses that fit a more troubling profile, but those organizations have no ties with the UCSB chapter. Your comment suggests that all Muslims think alike, and are somehow conspiring together to attack us. A very similar accusation has been hurled at Jews since the earliest days of the diaspora. As a Jew, I feel obligated to stand with my fellow students in the face of what I perceive as bigotry. In taking this stand, I am by no means embracing Dhimmitude. Rather, I am trying to prevent the conveyance of “Dhimmi-Status” to the Muslim students of my university.
      -Daniel Melnick
      V.P. Political Affairs, UCSB American Students for Israel

      • walt kovacs Reply

        May 26, 2011 at 10:47 pm

        daniel,

        http://www.msanational.org/events/sbcc-msa-ucsb-msa-joint-potluck-celebration-end-year

        http://www.oocities.org/ucsbmsa/aboutMSA.html

        they are in no way affiliated with the national msa?

        i will ask you once again…has the ucsb msa disavowed and/or condemned the actions of the msa’s from other uc campuses when it comes to demonizing israel and jews

        are they no longer affiliated with msa west, which recently sponsored a seminar which had, rabid jew hater, Amir Adel Malik Ali, as one of the speakers?

        come on…you are either naive, dumb, or so engulfed with western guilt, that you have blinded yourself to this groups true motives.

      • Discover UCSB MSA dossier Reply

        May 27, 2011 at 6:36 am

        Following that logic, if a student group formed a KKK chapter at UCSB, but didn’t engage in actual behaviors that Melnick finds abhorent, then he’d embrace that organization?

        If UCSB MSA members don’t wish to be tarred with MSA affiliation, then they should disassociate themselves and form a group that accurately reflects their values. Maybe the kitten-kuddler-klub?

        In the interim, people of conscience have a duty to condemn MSA local chapters for their local and national organization’s rancid record of Islamo-supremacism and bigotry.
        http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/groupProfile.asp?grpid=7403

        • Arafat Reply

          May 27, 2011 at 6:50 am

          Daniel,

          When does idealism become stupidity?

          Your ideals are enviable. Who wouldn’t be for the hope that everyone can get along in peace, but the problem with your ideals is it ignores the core tenets of Islam. And one of Islam’s most basic/core tenets is to fight all non-Muslims until they are all subservient and Islam rules over all.

          Now you many dismiss this as the rantings of a mad bigot but that does not explain why Muslims all over the world say these very things (as they quote the Qur’an) during their murderous rampages. That does not explain the slow but endless genocide against Christians throughout the Arab Middle East, or in Nigeria, Sudan, Somalia, etc…

          It is time you start re-thinking your approach to all this and start researching what Horowitz and others say before dismissing these people as insane bigots.

          The truth on the ground — be it in Israel where its neighbors still will not recognize its right to exist, or most anywhere else where one finds Islam — should be more than enough to make you question your idealism and to start seeing Islam for what it really is.

          http://www.rightsidenews.com/201003088962/life-and-science/culture-wars/islam-is-incompatible-with-diversity.html

        • Secular Muslim Reply

          May 27, 2011 at 7:34 am

          Muslims of conscience do exist– but not in the MSA.

          Secular Muslims (interested in reform) are unsupported in academia precisely because Leftists fear being (falsely) accused of bigotry by MSA jihadists, more than they fear being (accurately) identified as moral cowards for abandoning the defense of human rights.
          http://www.centerforinquiry.net/isis

          • Arafat Reply

            May 27, 2011 at 10:42 am

            Bravo Secular Muslim. You are a courageous and intelligent person. Good luck!

            • Khadeja Fishman Reply

              May 28, 2011 at 5:26 am

              Every bible, every quran may say things that cna be taken out of context. The qran recognises chrisitans and jews and sabiasn as paople fo the faith who shoudl be honoured and respected. it says int eh quran for those of you who have faith, muslims, christians, jews or sabians etc and do good you have nothing to worry about’. The problem today is entirely political, post colonialisation has created dictators and oppression and a reaction to the oppression. Israel is nto inncoent it has killed tens of thousands of palestinians, murdered and slaughtered them without a care. Sabra shatilla, and in recent times. They have killed without descrimination.Anyoen who has a heart or compassion can not support this be they secular muslim or not. How can you remove nation of people take their land, make them homeless then get upset becuase peopel tell you you have done wrong or refuse to give you legiutimacy? Especially when that same group of peopel you hyave fooced out live inr efugee camps anbd are bnot at epace? what the hell are oyu people on? where is your morality? The muslims are not reponsible for the holocaust, it si the west, so stop takign out your nager and frustratiosn on them.

  11. Hank Hill Reply

    May 26, 2011 at 12:06 pm

    David Horowitz makes my horny go away.

  12. Lizette Reply

    May 26, 2011 at 10:09 am

    Thank you for standing up to this bigot Hillel! Your actions are praiseworthy. :)

    • Arafat Reply

      May 26, 2011 at 10:23 am

      Lizette,
      Could you state specifically why you think Horowitz is a bigot? Yes, he says Islam is a religion of hatred, but is that bigotry or truthfulness? Have you read the Qur’an? Have you read the hadiths which describe in detail how Mohammed was cruel, misogynistic, a killer, rapist, enslaver and viscous conqueror? These are not lies or bigotry, they are the truth. If the truth becomes anathema on college campuses and more broadly throughout America then what differentiates us from the Islamic countries where truth is punishable as well?

      The following Qur’anic verse and hadiths are not made up, nor lies, nor exaggerations but are the actual translations.

      http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm

      http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Quran-Hate.htm

      Lizette, I again ask you to cite specifics when you accuse Horowitz of being a “bigot”. And if you cannot does that make you a bigot – and a supporter of lies – instead?

  13. Arafat Reply

    May 26, 2011 at 9:35 am

    Donna, you’re right and here are the victimizers:

    http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2011/05/arab-apartheid-ben-dror-yemini-must.html

    ***** ****** ******

    Donna writes, high functioning bullies…”

    Like these fellas, or are these examples of low funtioing bullies?

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/01/people-picture-muslims-with-a-quran-in-one-hand-and-a-sword-in-the-other.html

  14. Arafat Reply

    May 26, 2011 at 6:57 am

    I always find it so darn touching when Jews and Jewish organizations stand in solidarity with Students for Justice is Palestine and the MSA. I suppose in a different day, in a different time, and in a different place Jews just like these acted similarly in the 1930s in Germany.

    http://frontpagemag.com/2009/12/08/the-persistence-of-islamic-anti-semitism-by-robert-spencer/

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/muftihit.html

  15. Arafat Reply

    May 26, 2011 at 6:53 am

    Hey, let’s all pretend the sun rises in the west too!

    How dare David Horowitz be honest. Doesn’t he know that being politically correct is more important than being honest? The nerve of that man for taking the First Amendment seriously. Doesn’t he know the First Amendment was just window dressing and not something to actually act upon?

    Yeah, and furthermore, in the spirit of the sun really does rise in the west: Islam IS a tolerant and compassionate religion that makes no distinctions between Muslims and non-Muslims. It’s really just Islamaphobes like Horowitz who claim otherwise.

    Oh yeah, and the following well known bigots too:

    http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/islam/T9VLFM30K16SAHC66

    • omer harari Reply

      May 26, 2011 at 7:56 am

      I am so glad you won’t be at the alternative event :)

    • Donna Reply

      May 26, 2011 at 8:51 am

      it’s much more tolerant to accuse the victim of being a “terrorist” so that you can continue to victimize them (i.e. Palestine). This type of propaganda is deplorable and smear and fear tactics don’t help to further humanitarian causes or build bridges. David Horowitz and his ilk are high functioning bullies.

      • Hunter D. Reply

        May 27, 2011 at 2:16 am

        Except for the part where the, “Victims,” actually ARE engaging in terrorist activities and using children as human shields to maximize body counts and manipulate sympathies of those who aren’t willing to investigate an issue beyond shocking photographs, to say nothing of the populace they brainwash, sometimes going so far as to use translations of Nazi schoolbooks to teach their children to read. Books like, “Never Trust a Snake in the Grass or a Jew on his Word.”

        I seem to remember the original Israeli Charter calling for the creation of two states: one making up most of modern day Israel and the other making up most of modern day Jordan. That didn’t happen because the surrounding states all agreed to “Push the Jews into the sea.” You know…almost like an act of genocide…or, at the risk of invoking Godwin’s Law, a second Holocaust.

        Horowitz is a total douche and I’m glad that A.S. money isn’t going to support him. I will take the ASI at their word that UCSB’s MSA is not affiliated with student groups on other campuses that actually are associated with openly Antisemitic organizations, but his points aren’t entirely baseless, even if his conclusions are as absurd and offensive as what he purports to fight against.

        The most rational solution would be for both Israel AND the surrounding nations to each give up parcels of land to create a Palestinian state that could adequately house the displaced citizens.

        Of course, then you’d still have the total quagmire that is Jerusalem and that Gideon Knot can only be solved if everyone is willing to sit down and discuss the matter like rational adults. Which is to say, everyone needs to take their invisible friends off the table. Good luck with that one.

    • Masada Reply

      May 26, 2011 at 1:34 pm

      Dude even David Horowitz acknowledges that most Muslims have nothing to do with “Islamofascism”. If you have evidence that the UCSB MSA has ties to terrorism please present it. I doubt you’ll find it though, seeing as the UCSB MSA isn’t even affiliated with MSA National:

      http://www.msanational.org/affiliate/list

      Notice that UCSB is not on that list.

      • walt kovacs Reply

        May 26, 2011 at 10:48 pm

        and yet, the national msa publicizes their events

        curious

      • Discover UCSB MSA dossier Reply

        May 27, 2011 at 6:39 am

        Several times in recent years, MSA UCSB has participated in MSA National’s annual “Ramadan Fast-a-Thon” along with as many as 280 fellow chapters of MSA. The purpose of this event is to raise, through temporary fasting, public awareness of hunger and homelessness in Muslim communities. Recent endorsers of the Fast-a-Thon include:

        Sheikh Muhammad Nur Abdullah, former President of the Islamic Society of North America and currently a member of the Shari’a Scholars Association of North America
        Sheikh Abdullah Idris Ali, former President of the Islamic Society of North America and currently a Board of Advisors member of the American Muslim Council
        Imam Zaid Shakir, Yale University’s former Muslim chaplain who has expressed his desire to see the United States eventually become “a Muslim country ruled by Islamic law”
        Sheikh Hamza Yusuf, who has supported the terrorist mastermind Omar Abdel Rahman and the convicted cop-killer Jamil Al-Amin (aka H. Rap Brown)

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